A great idea IMHO

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A great idea IMHO

Postby ArcherB » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:18

My only complaint about Sabayon is that it misses out one of the biggest benefits of Gentoo, applications and OS compiled for your specific hardware.

There was a slashdot discussion about Gentoo on the PS3. Of course, I stuck up for Gentoo when someone whined that it was too hard. Someone responded with the following:

Gentoo would be more interesting to me if there was a distro of it that shipped with the Gnome desktop installed by default, installed as binary, and then recompiled all the vanilla binary bits from source when the machine was in screen-saver mode. Then I could be up and running right away and getting work done and the system could do its compile-from-source optimizations overnight or while I was at work.


While I'm no developer and don't know what it would take to introduce such a thing, cut a binary installation, like Sabayon, that would ask or detect what kind of system you have and then recompile based on your hardware. I could pass on the "running right away" bit. I even think a script that figured out what needed to be compiled and setup cron jobs to emerge whatever was needed at a scheduled time like 3:00am or M-F 9:00-5:00 or whatever.

Just a suggestion.
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Postby wolfden » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:35

ummmm people are already doing this

setup cron job

SL encourages people to setup their make.conf file for recompiling for optimization if you know what you are doing.


The problem more lays in people being too lazy to learn how to run a gentoo system. People are coming from the windows world and are so use to Billy Gates holding their hand and doing everything for them and than they come to gentoo and start crying it's too hard and than yell at the staff and devs cause they can't get something to work.

It's great new people are trying out linux but they have a responsibility to try and learn. They jump into a distro and have no clue what it's base really is. A little reading on the great documentation out there will teach anyone the basics in 30 minutes. I could understand if a distro had no documentation, but Gentoo has one of the largest documented resources out there.

People need to be happy with what they have gotten so far with SabayonLinux. I think people forget how much our devs are putting into this project and how much they have given us. It could be a lot harder but they make it easy and they only request that people try and learn how Gentoo works. Help others out, donate to the project, and make the project stronger.


Note this is not meant to be taken in a bad way, just IMHO is all, please disregard if it offends anyone
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Postby ArcherB » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:56

That attitude is why Linux will not make the desktop in the same way that M$ has. Well, Gentoo will never make it on the end Luser's desktop. Don't get me wrong, Gentoo is not for those with a weak stomach, but it is also the most optimized distro you can get.

As far as setting up the make.conf file. I asked about that after installing Sabayon for the first time. I had just moved from VidaLinux because I hosed Vida trying to install XGL and Sabayon came with it. After installing Vida, I recompiled everything for my system. I think I used emerge --newuse or something. I don't care to look it up right now. Anyway, when I asked about doing the same thing on Sabayon, I got the following response.
Definitely NO.
You'll break your system.
It's not easy to switch CHOST.
it's a f... hard operation Razz


The discussion can be found http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1788

Has that changed with more recent releases?
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Postby wolfden » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:21

I don't mess with CHOST, but I have changed and edit CFlags and USE and recompiled without problems.

As far as attitude, if the person is serious he/she will be able to run any linux distro they wish. People can't operate windows properly without learning either.

I guess it goes like the old saying you get what you put into it
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Postby turquoise » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:29

I have to agree about the attitude thing, mainly because Linux is different so you have to expect it to be different, and so are the different distros. It's like making the switch from Windows to Mac, they work differently and it can be difficult even if Mac is usually easier to work with. In fact, I can say from experience that Mac can be difficult because we don't expect it to be so simple. :) It's the same thing with Linux, some things are easier, others are harder, and it does take some time to adapt but it can happen faster than you think. I never had experience with a Gentoo-based distro before switching to Sabayon two months ago and I already know my way around fairly well, which is saying a lot since I'm quite the dumb n00b.

All I'm trying to say here is that we are so conditionned to the way Windows, Mac, or any distro we use work, that we tend to think that the trees are hiding the forest when we switch to something else. Yes, Sabayon is Gentoo-based, but it's also something entirely different so it works differently, not better or worse, just differently. Also, don't mind the grouches, they usually are very helpful when you have a big problem, and they do listen to what you have to say. :lol:
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My learning philosophy: try it, and if it breaks, try to fix it.
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Postby wolfden » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:55

turquoise wrote:All I'm trying to say here is that we are so conditionned to the way Windows, Mac, or any distro we use work, that we tend to think that the trees are hiding the forest when we switch to something else.



Very well said! It's the truth as frustrating as it may be.
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Postby ArcherB » Thu Jan 11, 2007 16:23

wolfden wrote:I don't mess with CHOST, but I have changed and edit CFlags and USE and recompiled without problems.


Same here. But I do find it frustrating that Sabayon is compiled for an i586, which is about the level of the original Pentium or K6 processors. I think it would be safe to move to i686 and set the bottom rung at the PII's. Or maybe CHOST doesn't matter that much performance wise. I've never benched and compared.

wolfden wrote:As far as attitude, if the person is serious he/she will be able to run any linux distro they wish. People can't operate windows properly without learning either.

I guess it goes like the old saying you get what you put into it


Very true. Unfortunately, the Linux advantage over windows is not worth the time to learn Linux for most people. Obviously, we are not among them. But for Linux to become mainstream, a Windows lUser needs to be able to sit at a Linux box, use it with no instruction, and be able to everything that he/she could do on Windows. Until that time, Linux will be limited to desktops of Geeks like us.

Back to the original discussion:
The slashdot post I mentioned could not be solved via a cron job. Yes, you could setup a cron to run emerge -uda world at 3:00am, but it wouldn't be done when you tried to use the system at 8:00am or even 5:00pm. Also emerge seems to crap out when it finds a dependency or something it can't handle rather than moving on to the next job. What the original wanted was a quick binary install that allows it to be used and for apps to be automatically optimized when the machine is not in use, one at a time, and stop when the machine was in use (or at least stop when current job is completed). This can't be done via cron.
If it could be done, it would offer both the benefits of a quick stage3 install with the performance of a stage1.
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Postby wolfden » Thu Jan 11, 2007 16:36

hmmm I guess it would depend on what was being updated, but if you're running a world update everyday it shouldn't take long to compile and you can add commands like --resume --skip first so that if emerge gets hung up on a package it will resume and keep on going till it finishes.

People do do this all the time. I myself am not gung-ho for world updates like that. I can go a month between world updates easily. I sync and install updates to things I want to in between world updates tho. The old phrase "new isn't always better" sticks out in my head. Many times new brings new bugs and problems.
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Postby ArcherB » Thu Jan 11, 2007 17:33

wolfden wrote:hmmm I guess it would depend on what was being updated, but if you're running a world update everyday it shouldn't take long to compile and you can add commands like --resume --skip first so that if emerge gets hung up on a package it will resume and keep on going till it finishes.

People do do this all the time. I myself am not gung-ho for world updates like that. I can go a month between world updates easily. I sync and install updates to things I want to in between world updates tho. The old phrase "new isn't always better" sticks out in my head. Many times new brings new bugs and problems.


I've never had a world update run flawlessly. I usually need to add the --resume and --skipfirst and rerun it at least 20-30 times before it completes, and of course, that leaves many packages not updated that will crap out the next time the update is run.
The original post talking about a one time thing, a continuation of the installation. The difference being that you would have a fully functional OS running while the optimizations are being made. After the stage3 install was completed and the OS running, the system would 'merge' itself to a stage1 install piece by piece whenever the machine was idle.

It may be a bit much to bite off and go well beyond what Sabayon is intended to be, but it would offer the best of both 'worlds', both stage1 and stage3. Maybe this should be more of a Gentoo suggestion than Sabayon, but it did seem to be an interesting proposal to me.
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