Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

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Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby BHReach » Sun Nov 20, 2011 16:21

There have been a number of complaints from users who have a broken system after upgrading. Sorry guys but stop blaming Sabayon and take responsibility for messing up your own system. Stop treating your production box like a test box! The Sabayon Developers cannot possibly test all software configurations and they don't have your hardware.

If you do things the Windoze way you can expect to get Windoze results. Windoze is designed for ease of use and there is always a conflict between ease of use and stability/security. Updating Windoze frequently causes problems that are not easy to fix.

If you are running a stable production box and you want to keep it that way, use some common sense.

1. Don't upgrade anything without testing it first.
2. Don't make wholesale upgrades, upgrade one thing at a time.
3. Keep a log of all changes you make.
4. Do not upgrade the kernel unless absolutely necessary because it can break many things.

Let me tell you how I manage my production boxes. This is not the only way but it is simple and has worked very well for me for years.

I start with a fresh install. I add my extra programs and configure the system. Between official releases I just like to do security/bug fixes. Do I add/upgrade individual programs? Yes, as long as I test them first. When a new release is made, I thoroughly test it, back up /etc, /home, /usr/local, freshly install the new release, copy /home back, and install the programs that were in /usr/local. That usually works without having to do any thing else. I rarely need to use /etc but it has all the global configuration files which can be handy if something doesn't work right.

Sabayon makes new releases every 6-8 month. That is not too long to wait for major upgrades.
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby genfool » Sun Nov 20, 2011 17:38

1. Don't upgrade anything without testing it first.

How would you test the upgrade first without installing it?

Don't make wholesale upgrades, upgrade one thing at a time.

entropy does not work that way, on a fresh install you would want to update the data base, equo update.
Then you would want to update the installer, equo install equo entropy.
If you are close to being updated, should install 4 packages ... if equo finds needed deps, I have seen the command install/update, over 60 packages.... entropy controls the deps it needs and updates.
now with fresh entropy installed, install one package .... again it will update other packages as needed. You end up with a system that is partially updated, I suggest to just do all upgrades first before installing packages.

3. Keep a log of all changes you make

This is very good advice, wish I followed it closer :mrgreen:

4. Do not upgrade the kernel unless absolutely necessary because it can break many things.

Upgrading a kernel is very easy in sabayon with kernel-switcher, it can fix many things as well. Either way, if done properly, you will still have your old kernel until you choose to remove it to fall back on.
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby Sisko43 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 17:54

That sounds all little bit strange what you wrote here.

Sorry guys but stop blaming Sabayon and take responsibility for messing up your own system. Stop treating your production box like a test box!


I don't treat my system like a test box. The Updates transform it to such a thing. Therefore it's not my responsibility. Updates should raise the production-box level and not lower it.

The Sabayon Developers cannot possibly test all software configurations and they don't have your hardware.


When libreoffice is not working, firefox is not working, gdm and kdm seg-faulting, gnome 3.2.1 also, than this has nothing to do with my hardware.

Updating Windoze frequently causes problems that are not easy to fix.


I don't like Windows 7, but I have it on my machine for my daily work with Avid Media Composer and Photoshop. Every second day new security fixes are pulled in via Windows-Update. Not a single problem after updates so far. In a time frame of two years.
Last edited by Sisko43 on Sun Nov 20, 2011 20:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby sabayonino » Sun Nov 20, 2011 17:56

genfool wrote:
1. Don't upgrade anything without testing it first.


Then you would want to update the installer, equo install equo entropy.
If you are close to being updated, should install 4 packages ... if equo finds needed deps, I have seen the command install/update, over 60 packages.... entropy controls the deps it needs and updates.


run equo with --relaxed option to avoid few dependeceds

Code: Select all
# equo install equo --relaxed



BHRich wrote good things.

I remember to you that sabayon has 3 repositories. sabayon-weekly must be much stable . you can use this.

No problem found for me after upgrade the system (with sabayonlinux.org repos. and sabayon-weekly repos.).

All my systems work well.

Am I lucky ? :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby Richlion » Sun Nov 20, 2011 20:03

BHReach wrote:There have been a number of complaints from users who have a broken system after upgrading. Sorry guys but stop blaming Sabayon and take responsibility for messing up your own system.


I've have had Sabayon Gentoo on my home computers since 2006. You should assume I don't even know how Windows works, I haven't had Windows on my home computers for the past 5 years. Also Sabayon gives us the possibility to install the updates and they arrive now every day, sometimes 2 packages, sometimes 142 packages like the whole KDE. Why do you say I "mess up" my system if the only way I update my system is via Sulfur?

If you do things the Windoze way you can expect to get Windoze results.

Even as a UNIX daily admin I feel I am being insulted :cyclops:
With all due respect to Linux gurus using Windows at work every day and keeping it updated doesn't screw it up every day.

Stop treating your production box like a test box!

You suggest we should all have at least 2 computers at home?
I understand, those who have Sabayon servers at their offices do have those resources, but some of us don't.

Sabayon makes new releases every 6-8 month. That is not too long to wait for major upgrades.

Your logic suggests that the major release that goes out every 6-8 months is totally stable and without bugs. It's not, that is why we expect UPDATES and we use Sulfur. That is why Sabayon is popular, is it not?
And I do not reinstall my whole system just as soon as a major release arrives because I don't always have the time and I may install a new major release after 1 month and I need to download all the updates after the install.

Up until Sabayon 7 we had a very stable system even after those daily updates, what is happening recently is completely what we have not experienced. We can no longer rely on those daily updates.

The Sabayon Developers cannot possibly test all software configurations and they don't have your hardware.

I agree but - sorry, I all it takes is to ckeck the basics - web browser, media player, email client, for example last nights updates screwed up VLC, todays updates fixed it. Those problems had nothing to do with the specific hardware I use.

I do know and I trust Gentoo-Sabayon will become stable again after a couple of new fixes and nothing will change my opinion this distro, it always was and still is the best distro around. However, development changes should be implemented with caution, although - we all agree - any Linux distro is prone to bugs, we all understand developers are not able to test every possible system configuration. It's the level and number of bugs that we may complain about recently. If there are so many bugs introduced every day, then there is reason for concern.

Regards,
Richard
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby greendave8 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 20:54

I just wanted to say that I was having doubts about which Linux distro I should use, and I was thinking about changing to Gentoo....

However, without losing faith, I decided to wait, and only a few hours too. Sabayon's Develepors have sorted the problems with VLC, Amarok etc, Once again, I thank you for a Distro that 90% OF THE TIME i ENJOY AND USE constantly.

In future, I will simply wait and see the feedback on any updates....But I do hope, the Develepors do a little more testing before releasing updates.

Thank you Dev team....almost there with THE perfect distro... just a little more testing before releasing those updates....

Cheers

gd8 :D :D :D
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby BHReach » Sun Nov 20, 2011 21:18

There have been a number of comments that require some clarification.

What is a production box?

It is a computer I need to use everyday for work. I want to avoid having to spend work time fixing it. That means I want a stable working system 24/7 without issues.

How do I achieve that?

Before deploying an OS on the production machine, I thoroughly test it on a test box. If you don't have a spare computer for testing, you can use a VM. I build and upgrade all my computers so I always have spare parts to use for a test box.

Once I am satisfied that the OS and software I need runs flawlessly on the test box, I am ready to deploy it on the production box. I backup the production box and deploy the new OS. I test it to make sure there are no hardware issues then restore the backed up data. I should have a system that runs 24/7 without problems.

Why do I need to upgrade that system?

Remember, I will reinstall the OS in a few months when the next official release is made so I will get all the upgrades eventually. Why risk breaking my system with upgrades? I am willing to install security patches and bug fixes because they are small, very unlikely to cause problems and have clear benefits.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it."

For the most part, the upgrades work fine and do not break anything. I am concerned about the infrequent times when they do break something. I may have to spend hours possibly many hours trying to fix things. It's OK on a test box because I can put it aside and work on it at my leisure but on a production box, I have to fix it before I can do any work.

I started using Gentoo in 2003, the same situation exists there. Most upgrades work fine but every once in a while you get one that breaks your system. It is just a weakness of their rolling release technology.

My solution to the weakness is don't do general upgrades on production boxes between official releases. Bug fixes and security patches are critical upgrades, upgrading to the latest and greatest version of software is not critical and does not need to be done as soon as it is available.
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby genfool » Sun Nov 20, 2011 22:17

Why do you say I "mess up" my system if the only way I update my system is via Sulfur?


I send Fabio a big wet sloppy kiss, thank him for his efforts ... I never use sulfur to update.
I do not claim to be a power user ... just simply use the terminal to update. Very seldom do I run into issues using terminal for updates, at same time I do have complaints, just none of them fit in this thread.
minor issues are fixed within hours as soon as they are identified, not many distros can claim or achieve that.
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby BHReach » Sun Nov 20, 2011 22:24

Richlion wrote:
I've have had Sabayon Gentoo on my home computers since 2006. You should assume I don't even know how Windows works, I haven't had Windows on my home computers for the past 5 years. Also Sabayon gives us the possibility to install the updates and they arrive now every day, sometimes 2 packages, sometimes 142 packages like the whole KDE. Why do you say I "mess up" my system if the only way I update my system is via Sulfur?


Just because you install it via Sulfur (or equo) doesn't mean it is bug free or safe. You have the choice of upgrading or not (Sulfur doesn't force you to upgrade). You should test it before upgrading or as someone else suggested at least wait a few days to see if there are any complaints and for any problems to be fixed.

Even as a UNIX daily admin I feel I am being insulted :cyclops:
With all due respect to Linux gurus using Windows at work every day and keeping it updated doesn't screw it up every day.


No insult intended. My experience with Windows is dated. If I need to run a Windows program I use XP in a VM. I have a laptop with Vista on it that I don't use much and have never updated. I do recall updating Windows a number of times in the past and ending up with a mess on my hands which is one reason I switched to Linux.

You suggest we should all have at least 2 computers at home?
I understand, those who have Sabayon servers at their offices do have those resources, but some of us don't.


You can test in a VM.

Your logic suggests that the major release that goes out every 6-8 months is totally stable and without bugs. It's not, that is why we expect UPDATES and we use Sulfur. That is why Sabayon is popular, is it not?
And I do not reinstall my whole system just as soon as a major release arrives because I don't always have the time and I may install a new major release after 1 month and I need to download all the updates after the install.


I don't assume anything about the official releases and I thoroughly test before deploying them but I do expect them to be more stable than the weekly releases. Most Linux distros (as well as other software) use a Beta-Release Candidate mechanism to minimize bugs for their official releases and I assume Sabayon has something similar.

Sabayon is popular because it is very easy to install, handles most multimedia files out of the the box and to a lesser extent has a massive software selection.

I gave Sabayon 6 (all variations) to my brother, he tried installing them one by one until he found one (Gnome x86) that installed and worked flawlessly out of the box. He never upgraded it (doesn't know how or want to learn how) and only struggled to install firefox because he didn't like chromium. He just uses it. I expect the vast majority of Sabayon users do the something similar.

There is no rush to install a new release, test it first then install it.
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Re: Discussion About Upgrade Complaints

Postby rdkone » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:04

Just wanted to say many distros updates break thwmselves. I use many many distros to learn about and multiboot off of one to restore another when this happens. Check out 'partimage' and use in alternate distro to make backups of ones in question prior to huge updates/upgrades, as I'll have to w / this instance of Sabayon...
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