cvill64 wrote: A little server like that really wouldn't do it in the long run and binaries are just in short....inferior. I would suggest a gentoo binhost for a company no problem, because all their systems are usually the same and they don't want to compile all day long.
Sorry, but I don't think I can agree here. You are absolutely right about Gentoo, binary packages are nonsense. But I'm not talking about Gentoo here, I'm talking about Sabayon or other binary(!) derivates of Gentoo. They are like many other (major) distributions binary, they only use Gentoo for easier software management.
But if you consider Sabayon as a binary distribution with a very static make.conf (CHOST,CFLAGS,USE environment) binary packages make sense, because:
- they can be used by every sabayon user, who didn't change the make.conf or the make.profile or anything else in the environment (most desktop users won't do that), which means that they are actually Gentoo users. We only have two build profiles at the moment: i586/x86 and amd64/x86_64.
- every major binary distribution has binary online updates today. I don't think that doing a dvd update every two month is a very good approach. It is working, of course, and you can ship the packages with a new consistant configuration and you have a good BitTorrent solution, but it is not working for small software updates, consistant security or bug fixes or for additional software installation. Debian for example needs 3 dvds for all packages... Most likely advanced linux hobbyists will do gentoo source updates themselves, but not the average Desktop user. They even don't want to do a 2 month software dvd update. They need an automatic GUI-Software-Updater (SuSE, RedHat, Debian, Windows, Mac OS X,...) and they don't want to wait three days for a complete update.
Almost any distributional need could be satisfied by Gentoo derivates today. There is no need for any other package management tool anymore, since Portage can beat them all.
This is not about flaming or underestimating the great APT tool (or others), but it is about the idea of unifying Software distributions with an almost universal software management tool like Portage. Portage in combination with special configurations and binary repositories for several binary Gentoo derivates would be a solution to many Linux/BSD/Solaris problems today. Do the general package management stuff for gentoo ebuilds together and customize the binary build environment for your distribution afterwards. In my opinion this is what Sabayon does, isn't it?
You can see the big advantage of that directly: You can extend/change your binary distribution easily with source builds from gentoo and satisfy your needs with a big gentoo base repository (while keeping your binary package updates from your customized distribution).
The conclusio here is, that binary packages for Gentoo derivates are good!
The problem are not the packages themselves, but distributing them. Most likely you are right here and I have no idea about actual server needs for a binhost or other solutions.
My idea was:
Start the project; wait for the impact; try to find as many mirrors as possible (and find a better server solution later maybe).
This impact would show that there is a great need for binhosts and prove me right
. Just because there are problems doesn't mean that it is not a good thing.
But other solutions came to my mind, too. What about using P2P? Something like BitTorrent or Edonkey? I know that sounds really strange for package updates, but it is a real community solution. The advantages are, if we find a working technique:
- prove of concept and solution for almost every other Gentoo derivate (even small home brewn)
- makes us a competitive distribution with "one" step
The big question is: How can you get a reliable and relatively fast p2p solution (it shouldn't take longer to download the file, then to build it from source using a fast Gentoo mirror)?
Portage gives us the FETCHCOMMAND environment variable, where we can set customized solutions to get our packages. We could create a background daemon, BitTorrent for example, which fetches the update and distributes it back afterwards.
I don't know how to do the actual packaging. For the beginning I would think of weekly forks out of the Sabayon development repository, which build cleanly and don't have any revdep-rebuild issues. Then package all updated packages together and finally setup a torrent tracker, which can be reached by the update daemons of the clients. Maybe the clients could decide themselves which bin packages of the torrent they choose.
I don't know how much manpower is needed for automatical build scripts on the Sabayon development server. Could you precise where the problems are here, please?
I understand that there can be stability problems and even hardware, xorg, ... issues. Maybe we could do a fork out of the released Sabayon version, e.g. 3.1, and then do an "emerge world -u" weekly? Maybe fix some critical bugs, too. But since they are already fixed Gentoo upstream most likely, it wouldn't be as much work as on a "normal" distribution. Probably some manpower comes back, once Sabayon gets more popular.
Personally I believe Sabayon is better than all other distributions, the only drawback is the source building. (By the way thank you very much for: 1. a very nice design (the best on all distros) 2. the best LiveDVD I've ever seen 3. the best Gentoo installation support( hardware detection/preconfiguration ). Without the long boot times and the missing "-mno-tls-direct-seg-refs" CFLAG I would use it today. I would even drop the non provable build optimisations
I know this is a very vague concept, but I would like to discuss that here. I hope you like to do it here, too. The Gentoo forums are in my opinion not the real target for this discussion, although they might be interested.
There are also other complications of getting the man power to upkeep it and many others. we shall discuss this more among ourselves but feedback like yours is much appreciated
What do you mean with "among ourselves" ? Do you mean we should discuss that in a private chat or do you mean you would like to discuss that in the sabayon leaders group only?