openmoko, free you phone ... iphone killer?

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Postby totedati » Mon Jul 30, 2007 21:58

monday90 wrote:Yes the version sheduled for release in September is supposed to have alot more features. I believe they are currently looking at a camera, WIFI, and larger onboard flash memory, plus a few other extras. This is the one I'll be holding out for. The current version is a developers version and as such it is limited somewhat. Got to admit I'm watching this one very closely and will be ordering mine at the earliest opportunity. I had heard that the planned release date had slipped a little to November but this may just be rumour.


for me, if can stick in it a bigger memory chunk every time i need it is not much a issue if onboard flash memory is too small ... and if, to be more clear, all this memory sticks can morph in a single variant, cheap and easy to use it in any devices, camera, video, etc. etc will be even more better. When i see all this flow of new flash memory variant, incompatible to each other, i scream ... really .. every time ... is a real horror dream in my life ... the last gadget that spark my attention was a "32 in one" memory stick usb device !!! 32 variants to cash in our dreams from the gatekeepers for no reason, only because they can !!!

and the numbers is growing !!!

camera, easy video recording, in a divx ogg container ofcourse, easy internet conectivity like wifi, and also can be important a 'local' bluebooth or infrared easy connectivity way is important. I think how many time you are forced to send a MMS to you friend, that is sitting in front of you because you not find any other way to send him a photo, a little java games, a videoclip, a ogg music ofcourse, etc .. etc ... And all the time the gatekeepers was happy cashing in your dreams ... this is why i call it the gatekeepers, because they watch the gates between me and you, unnatural and artificial gates anyway ... i hope all of you understand now what i'm thinking, and about what i'm talking ....
linux is free, the expertise to harness it is not!
you don't make so much money selling open source software!
You make MORE money USING it, just like google!
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Postby monday90 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 22:15

There are many versions of competing memory stick but their interfaces are all open. The large numbers only serve to drive down prices. Part of this is the miniturization of designs such as the sd, sdmini, and sd micro --the same stick just made smaller usually provided with adapters to enable compatibility. Could you imagine if phones took compact flash cards? they would have to be huge!! To have all phones/devices use one memory stick would give the monopoly to that manufacturer. In my opinion having many variations competing is a good thing.
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Postby totedati » Fri Aug 03, 2007 23:27

monday90 wrote:There are many versions of competing memory stick but their interfaces are all open.


is open, but when you try to stick a sandisk flash to a xd flash only camera you see how open is. Here all specification can be 'open' when the real thing can fit in.

monday90 wrote:The large numbers only serve to drive down prices. Part of this is the miniturization of designs such as the sd, sdmini, and sd micro --the same stick just made smaller usually provided with adapters to enable compatibility.


so why is so hard to agree about a common form factor, like is all usb connected devices now? Let's all variant compete for free, based by technology advances not by a aleatory form factor!. I want to stick all type of 'compact flash cards' in my camera, not to buy 10 camera variants! Here i see a gate ... and a gatekeeper ofcourse ....

monday90 wrote:To have all phones/devices use one memory stick would give the monopoly to that manufacturer. In my opinion having many variations competing is a good thing.


hmmm ... i don't see any monopoly in bolt industry .... and in bulb also ... i see only a lot of manufacturers producing all the same thing, following a set of sane standards ... no chance for a monopoly when the specs are open, no patents, and a lot of demand from market ...

monday90 wrote:Could you imagine if phones took compact flash cards? they would have to be huge!!


and for the technology limitation, i agree, sometime a technology can't fit in any physical form factor. But let be technology that can pose a limit here not the compact flash card vendor crazy imagination! And, again, for the flash part, i have a 1 GiB flash pen disk that is even more little that a lot of compact flash cards now in the market ... see here if you don't believe:

Kingmax_KU201G-U2GMHMDWG_1GB_Super_Stick_USB2.0_Ultra_Slim_Flash_Drive
http://www4.shopping.com/xPO-Kingmax-Technology-Kingmax-Super-Stick-1GB-USB-2-0-Flash-Drive-World-s-Tiniest

was so small that when i buy it i don't see it from the begining :shock: :shock:

me = i want a 1 GiB pendrive!
retailer = we have some variants but really you need a 1 GiB? Is not cheap, maybe a 512 MiB?
me = i want a 1 GiB variant NOW!
retailer = ok, ok, le't see if can find one, you know what you see in advertisement papers is
one thing, but when you go in a real magazine is a real chance that you can't find it
any more ;-) we don't have a unlimited supply chain ...
retailer = moving around for a time ... hehe ... i find one! is a real 1 GiB pendrive, you see how sweet is!
me = humm ... look good ... really good ... and is 1 GiB not so?

all of you can see it here, in all it's glory, also:
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/totedati/altele/?action=view&current=kingmax_usb_1GB.jpg
http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/totedati/altele/?action=view&current=Kingmax_KU201G-U2GMHMDWG_1GB_Super_.0_Ultra_Slim_Flash_Drive.jpg

retailer = it is, surely!
me = i buy it ...
retailer = ok
me = after the money exchange happiness and almost to leave the shop ... but wait a little ....
me = where is the pendrive!? Shaking the thing that just buy'ed ... where it is? i don't see it!!!
retailer = grab the package, looking at it also ... hummm ... surely it is here ... must be here !!! Not so!?
me = i don't see anything here ... this package is empty ... what is this!?
retailer = looking harder for a while and mumbling, surely should be here ... hummm ... hey i see it! is here! here! you see it?
me = oh my good, i see it also ... is that little thing? really? you don't cheat me?
me = again ... i don't believe how small can be! Is real? well i go home and i will check ... if you try to cheat me i will go back very quick ...


is is a real story!! no cheat here! I remember it with joy from time to time ... And now you telling me that flash technology is too big for mp3 phones and digital cameras ... 90% of a smartcard or flash pendrive is only plastic garbage meat. The real thing, the silicon chips, is really very small from almost the beginning ... really ...
linux is free, the expertise to harness it is not!
you don't make so much money selling open source software!
You make MORE money USING it, just like google!
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Postby totedati » Sat Aug 04, 2007 0:21

and now i see this:



and wonder why!? why you need to pump big money to reinvent the wheel!? All infrastructure is already here!! Why to not use it? Why to do it again and again?

google, use your brain and stop waste your money!
linux is free, the expertise to harness it is not!
you don't make so much money selling open source software!
You make MORE money USING it, just like google!
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Postby monday90 » Mon Aug 06, 2007 23:42

You can draw parallels quite easily with the bolt/nut industry. but how many different sizes of nut and bolt are there? you can't just go and buy any combination and expect them to work together. You also have different types of bolt. Flat head, Phillips head, grub, star, and hex, plus too numerous to mention. These are all made by different manufacturers some of the designs are open and implemented widely, others are (believe it or not) proprietary. Try changing the cam-belt on a Citroen with a standard set of tools.
Over time technology gets better (generally) and designs have to change to accommodate new features. Cassette tapes were replaced by CD's which are being replaced by DVD's and now HDDVD and BLUray. With a technology as fast paced as flash memory the changes are quicker. The fact that you can buy a card reader which will accept all major types of flash card is testament to the open standards involved in their design though. You could if you wished manufacture such a device without having to pay royalties to the card manufacturer. In fact you could manufacture the cards themselves in whatever format you wished without having to pay royalties either. In many ways its like Linux distros, there are hundreds of them and they all have their incompatibilities and peculiarities but each is open and you can if you wish implement one of your own as your needs see fit.
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Postby monday90 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 0:06

And now you telling me that flash technology is too big for mp3 phones and digital cameras ... 90% of a smartcard or flash pendrive is only plastic garbage meat. The real thing, the silicon chips, is really very small from almost the beginning ... really ...


Flash memory silicon chips are small but their capacities and interfaces have gone through enormous changes in the last five or so years. As have processors and memory and even hard disks. It comes down to researching what you want, ensuring it meets your standards. Then buying. I agree there are some manufacturers of equipment/devices who try to tie that equipment to their own revenue streams. Apple springs to mind. But it is down to you as an informed consumer to make those choices.

P.S. Don't ever try changing the cam belt on a Citroen. :wink:
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Postby totedati » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:16

monday90 wrote:
And now you telling me that flash technology is too big for mp3 phones and digital cameras ... 90% of a smartcard or flash pendrive is only plastic garbage meat. The real thing, the silicon chips, is really very small from almost the beginning ... really ...


Flash memory silicon chips are small but their capacities and interfaces have gone through enormous changes in the last five or so years. As have processors and memory and even hard disks. It comes down to researching what you want, ensuring it meets your standards. Then buying. I agree there are some manufacturers of equipment/devices who try to tie that equipment to their own revenue streams. Apple springs to mind. But it is down to you as an informed consumer to make those choices.

P.S. Don't ever try changing the cam belt on a Citroen. :wink:


monday90 wrote:You can draw parallels quite easily with the bolt/nut industry. but how many different sizes of nut and bolt are there?


but i see a rationale for this many size variants! you need to carry different stress load by different sizes! what is the rationale for so many form factor of smartcard!? Especially if interface is defined by open standards? Why is this 1 mm long? And this 0.02 mm higher? Why the pin can't fit even the number is the same? Is technology that constrain it to be so? Try to open the plastic meat and see how tinny is really. What you see? This size variations has no rational purpose!

i see only one, like is in usb connectors, when you want to connect to different size devices, and some of it need also to be powered by usb connector. Also you can have here different formfactor when you want to fit for different size devices. But for all digital camera, with almost same size, i see no rationale to be so many incompatible smartcards!

monday90 wrote: you can't just go and buy any combination and expect them to work together. You also have different types of bolt. Flat head, Phillips head, grub, star, and hex, plus too numerous to mention. These are all made by different manufacturers some of the designs are open and implemented widely, others are (believe it or not) proprietary.


I see a valuable point here. You hit me, really ... I see a lot of gates also ;-p ... Like the cam belt of a Citroen ...

monday90 wrote:Try changing the cam-belt on a Citroen with a standard set of tools.


i am a smart guy, so i don't like futile battle, with no chance to win. I don't do it ..

monday90 wrote:Over time technology gets better (generally) and designs have to change to accommodate new features. Cassette tapes were replaced by CD's which are being replaced by DVD's and now HDDVD and BLUray. With a technology as fast paced as flash memory the changes are quicker.


This a good argument for the muddy situation you see right now. Technology is changing so quick that make you head to spin! But also i see no effort from smartcard manufacturers to try a more compatible approach, for example my newer smartcard carrying a wicked technology to be able to fit to the same formfactor and pins from a older smartcard. And all device manufacturers is so happy to not be compatible. So now i want that super digital camera with 20 megapixels! i have already a 512 MiB, xd-smartcard, i don't want to buy another! Why don't fit to this new device!? I see no rationale for this situation, only the gates, and the happy gatekeepers !!!

monday90 wrote:The fact that you can buy a card reader which will accept all major types of flash card is testament to the open standards involved in their design though.


when this compatibility flash card reader have also only one hole, or holes classified by size only, i will understand the value of this open standards ...

monday90 wrote:You could if you wished manufacture such a device without having to pay royalties to the card manufacturer. In fact you could manufacture the cards themselves in whatever format you wished without having to pay royalties either.


you see here the problem? If my can do that, why manufacturers can't do that!? Why so many incompatible pins!? And form factors? No rationale, because myself can do it!

monday90 wrote:In many ways its like Linux distros, there are hundreds of them and they all have their incompatibilities and peculiarities but each is open and you can if you wish implement one of your own as your needs see fit.


hmmm ... but you don't buy it not so? In this situation that little license, telling you that this thing do not carry any warranty, for any purpose means something, and this is exactly that: you don't buy it so i have no legal obligation, as a vendor, to you!!! You test and use it if you can. But with no obligation, and this if fine for many of us ...

But you buy the damn smartcard and the damn digital camera !!! They have some form of obligation to you! And one of it is to not try to overprice you with artificial technological barriers .. i hope ... or i am too naive here !?
linux is free, the expertise to harness it is not!
you don't make so much money selling open source software!
You make MORE money USING it, just like google!
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Postby monday90 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 22:31

I agree with the point that there should only be one standard. But getting all the different manufacturers to agree on one when that would require overhaul of their manufacturing equipment. Could you imagine if SD was accepted as standard? what would happen to the other manufacturers? They would then have to spend money on replacing (sometimes very expensive) equipment so their flash cards meet the new standard. Its not that I don't agree with your initial point, it's a right ballache making sure you have the ability to read from most flash cards because you don't know when your mate will turn round with his new camera and ask you to help him put his photos on a CD. The difference with USB was that the standard was developed in collaboration with manufacturers for integration onto motherboards. Smart cards just sort of sprang up when manufacturers realized they could put flash storage on devices. Hence the wide variation of interfaces. In these circumstances what tends to happen is that consumers eventually show a preference for one format over another (not necessarily the best either, remember VHS and Betamax?).
Flash memory is still in my opinion in its infancy. Flash hard drives are now a reality. Capacity's are growing and prices are falling. It is predicted that flash memory will entirely replace conventional hard disks in the near future. At this point a universal standard will have to be developed for adoption onto new motherboards.
This is however very much a matter of opinion and will very much depend on your own personal view point. A good point well argued my friend. I doubt that either of will be swayed on this though. If you're ever in the UK give me a shout and we will go for a drink.
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Postby Stupot » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:17

This argument is pretty pointless.

The cell phone industry and technology is evolving so rapidly that it would be so incredibly detremental to progress to make a standard that no company would do it.

Besides that, it honestly won't be long before cell phones stop using the same kinds of signals and start using internet wi fi (ok, by won't be long, I'm thinking like maybe 20-35 years).
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Postby totedati » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:30

Anyway is a good thing that by different and conflicting opinion, but driven by a sane and valid discussion, all of us are now more informed. This thing have only one name: PROGRESS. Of our minds, for all of us. And this is all that matters finally.

But look like is not only me thinking that openmoko platform is a good thing for gphone to use!. After my bubbling here, i decided that is time to bubble again, more close to google heart http://groups.google.com! My hope is that my virtual bubbling to not be in vain ... i know, i know ... me so naive ... thinking to change the world, a money hungry one, by a few words ... :oops: :oops: . You can look here my little struggle close to google heart: http://groups.google.com/group/gphone?hl=en

And what i see here my eyes! Is true that google is not so stupid that my fear and that is really thinking about using openmoko platform for his gphone!. See here the rumors:
http://www.nowtoronto.com/blog/view_post.cfm?post=327

ohohoho ... this is big and good news for me ... i hope for all of us ... :D :D :D
This means one thing, again and again, linux revolution is a quiet one, but is happen right now! But you need to listen the music of the universe, and to be able to hear the star moving to be able to see it. You need to dream ... dream ... dream ... :oops: :oops:
linux is free, the expertise to harness it is not!
you don't make so much money selling open source software!
You make MORE money USING it, just like google!
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