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Discuss all artwork and development - Suggestions needed

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Postby cvill64 » Fri Nov 17, 2006 16:32

lol, college, research, work, life, athletics, SL.... etc etc etc :P

also, we don't have a "static" make.conf, it is static when distributed, but the reason is to make a gentoo installation on a users computer. This is just to make it easier for users to get a system up and running then they can play with it.

You are more then welcome to IM me on jabber and discuss it more, but agreeing with lxnay on the man power and the fact that gentoo isn't supposed to lock you into binaries, I think that a binhost isn't the best solution in the world for the best _compatibility_. Now, that's not to say I wouldn't suggest using SL in a work environment, where all the computers are the _same_ and everybody will be using about the same things, then a computer admin should set up a binhost to push to the work computer so that they're not compiling while people are trying to get work done, that makes sense

Perhaps if we grow and "emerge" into the world more and a lot of people with the same hardware and requirements, we can happily work with them to set up a binhost and such with some support
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well

Postby Darksurf » Fri Nov 17, 2006 17:43

there's always Klik. You can use klik and make things easy on yourself. Compiling from source is better though. It's made to fit your computer instead of a generic one.
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Postby random guy » Fri Nov 17, 2006 22:55

oh ya i totally agree that sabayon linux would not be able to make a binhost, the manpower and money is just not there plus it would take away attension from the important stuff you are already working on. but i really wonder why gentoo.org doesnt think about such a thing. they have a lot of resources, maybe more than most of the other distributions that are not comercial based (red hat).

actually to get to the heart of the issue i think the real problem is that i think emerge can be faster. it is already very smart but i can see things that would improve it for example why not download one ebuild while another one is compiling instead of downloading them all first and then compiling. furthermore we should be able to set more processing power to it for those times when you are not on the computer for like 2 hours and want ta compile. no need to let cpu cycles and ram sit idle.

some of these would be difficult to set up because you cant compile an app before some dependencies are taken care of but in most cases (like say if i wanted to emerge gaim and firefox at same time) it would not be a problem to have em both running simultaneously.

again this is not really a sabayon issue but i think hte gentoo community as a whole can draft up a couple of improvements for portage. the bottom line is portage is amazingly powerful, customizable and stable but it is not as efficient as it could be.
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Postby whilo » Sat Nov 18, 2006 13:31

You can get the packages you need through portage most of the time. So you have to compile, what is the problem?


I've already pointed that out above, but I try to do it more precisely:

- compiling takes a lot of time
- compiling stresses your hardware a lot more than simple updates. Besides, compare the harddisk usage during emerge --sync to apt-get update.
- compiling takes too long in a normal work environment, many pc's today are not fast enough to do an install/update in a reasonable time. Even my Dual 2 Core 2 GHz processor takes two days for an install. Many updates need some manual adjustements and emerge simply stops in the middle of a nightly update. Debian takes a few ours for installation and a few minutes for updates, depending on your downstream.
I've been seriously thinking about switching to it, although I'm really used to Gentoo and I like the freedom of changing things. I've had three different desktop systems for almost 2 years, and my laptop still is Gentoo. I've switched the other systems to binary distributions like Kubuntu or OpenSuSE, because I cannot serve my parents/brother with a consistant system. Everytime I update I break someting. For me it is not a big problem to fix it or circumvent it. OpenSuSE simply works for my parents. I tried to keep a consistant system for shared nfs home directories. This needs almost the same setup, at least the same basis on all machines. If I imagine real work environments like the ones I've already seen, Gentoo is not an option. Big companies can setup a Binhost and administrate their own "distribution" on top of Gentoo, but small companies (I estimate <300 employees) cannot.

P2P isn't going to work cause people don't have patience to wait. Some don't even know what P2P is yet alone configure it, port forward and use it.


Well, most Sabayon Linux users know P2P, since they download via BitTorrent. We could provide a "wizard" for activation of automatic updates though. The background daemon would handle all P2P stuff and would integrate with portage transparently, this is my idea.
I know that this is not a simple setup and I know that we don't have the man power, but maybe we could think about a solution first and then drop it, if it's impossible to realize.

SabayonLinux needs to stay focused on the operating system and supporting it. SL needs the support of the people in order to continue development as it is.


I don't know what you mean here exactly. Nobody is talking about taking the resources away from SL. I'm just saying that Binhosts would be great, not that you stop developping Sabayon to administrate a Binhost. Of course you first need a great Sabayon setup and than distribute it...

We should be happy with what we have - it works great.


I am really happy with Sabayon and I'm thinking about switching back from OpenSuSE (Kickoff is in Sabayon before it is in SuSE, I really love that... ). In my opinion it is one of the best distributions on the planet. That's why I discuss here. I would like to fix the drawback of compilation to be able to use it everywhere :-D.

1. miniEditions: since minis don't come with GNOME deps, we can't produce a binary package that works on both DVD edition and those ones.


We need not support them, if we don't like to. I know that this is odd, but we can focus on one supported setup first. Otherwise you can even set your make.conf to the one of the dvd and do an emerge world -uD with the Binhost, or am I wrong here?

2. we'd need a lot of extra man power.


Yes I understand this and I know that you are working and most likely you would like to have more time for your private life, too. I don't want to say you have to do it. I simply suppose that we think about solutions, if you can agree with me, that binhosts are a good thing for Sabayon.

also, we don't have a "static" make.conf, it is static when distributed, but the reason is to make a gentoo installation on a users computer. This is just to make it easier for users to get a system up and running then they can play with it.


O.k. I can get the point here. But we have a "static" CHOST and "static" CFLAGS which is most important. And Sabayon almost activates all USE-flags possible, which means, when adding new USE flags, the old setup won't be broken normally. The best thing would be to get the USE-flags for less than let's say 3 packages in the /etc/portage/package.use file. This would help to keep the base setup as consistant as possible.
Additionally the binary updates should be excactly the same as when the user types emerge world -uD. But we have to think about this point since with a Binhost we would have a releaseless distribution with all its problems (like debian unstable).
Another Option here would be to keep the Binhost packages for every release for one year ( daily updates via emerge world -uD ). After that you have to install a new Sabayon version. This approach would make Sabayon and the world updates more consistant. A mixture of releaseless and normal releases.

If you only build Sabayon as a playground for potential Gentoo users, then we can stop the discussion right here. I tried to make that clear, that first we have to admit that Sabayon is a binary distribution and not vanilla Gentoo anymore. I would say it's a "derivate". If you don't agree here and say that it's still Gentoo, then Binhosts are nonsense. In my opinion Sabayon is much better than that.

Perhaps if we grow and "emerge" into the world more and a lot of people with the same hardware and requirements, we can happily work with them to set up a binhost and such with some support


You don't need the same hardware to use binary packages, don't you? You only need the same hardware for the same system configuration...

there's always Klik. You can use klik and make things easy on yourself. Compiling from source is better though. It's made to fit your computer instead of a generic one.


Yep, it's not about Klik here. Klik is more for live cd users or users, who don't have install privileges. It is not a solid solution.

but i really wonder why gentoo.org doesnt think about such a thing. they have a lot of resources, maybe more than most of the other distributions that are not comercial based (red hat).


Because Gentoo is a source distribution, it's nonsense for them.

actually to get to the heart of the issue i think the real problem is that i think emerge can be faster. it is already very smart but i can see things that would improve it for example why not download one ebuild while another one is compiling instead of downloading them all first and then compiling. furthermore we should be able to set more processing power to it for those times when you are not on the computer for like 2 hours and want ta compile. no need to let cpu cycles and ram sit idle.


Check for parallel-fetch and priority changes to build in the background. These features are here already. You can always do nightly updates via cron jobs.
Emerge cannot accelerate compilation times. Emerge is slower than Apt for example, but you can tweak it and put the metacache in a db instead of plain files, which should accelerate emerge --sync and emerge startup times a lot.

some of these would be difficult to set up because you cant compile an app before some dependencies are taken care of but in most cases (like say if i wanted to emerge gaim and firefox at same time) it would not be a problem to have em both running simultaneously.


Compilation takes all your cpu power already. If you start several emerge processes you get a problem with memory and scheduling. This won't accelerate, but slows you down. Compilation is not a time issue but a work issue...

Finally I would like to ask you, and that's the important question, do you think that Sabayon is Gentoo or do you think Sabayon is binary customized built of Gentoo?

Cheers,
whilo
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Postby wolfden » Sat Nov 18, 2006 16:47

If you don't know if you want it or not than find the binary. I compile on a PII 400 for goodness sakes.


Gentoo = Compile


I have no problems compiling, don't want to compile than use a different linux distro - it's that easy. It's been stated that SL does not have the resources to do this. Your beating a dead horse, resources need to be on SL development. There is no funding for this binary project, Binaries are available if not, compile it. It doesn't take that long to compile a average program.


Gentoo = Compile <-- there is a reason for this, it's what make Gentoo
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Postby random guy » Sat Nov 18, 2006 17:44

i dont think emerge necessarily uses all my cpu power but i will let that slide for now.

i often say i want binaries because if you want to try out several different programs (say different...ummm... html editors or whatever) but dont know which one is good it would be nice to be able to try each one out and then just compile the one you like for your hardware. i guess that is the strength of kilk but kilk needs some work. maybe it would be more benifiecial to help support kilk to make good stand alone apps rather than an actual binhost considering that as you said you can install new apps the the disk, which i wasnt away of since i havent used my disk at all since install.

i never could find binaries anyway and i couldnt get the binary files i made to work either...

anyway anyone else think that portage can be more efficient. i can imagine that if the gentoo developers worked on making it faster they could make long installs take considerably less time without sacrificing the power it already has.

by the way you compile on a p2 400mhz, wow hat off to you.
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I don't want to give up...

Postby whilo » Sat Nov 18, 2006 19:59

First of all I would like to say that I am on your side. Maybe it seems a little bit like "Join the forum, have no real idea of the internals and the persons and the efforts in Sabayon, give intellegent new ideas that nobody needs and try to attack Sabayon people." This is absolutely not my purpose!!!

I'm posting here because I like Sabayon and I like Gentoo and I'm very used to it and I know C++ coding ( kblogger.pwsp.net ) and I know some bash scripting and I'm thinking about improvements and my participation in the community. I don't want to insult anybody and I don't want to work or argument against you! I'm thinking about joining Sabayon and maybe help implementing binary packages.
I'm writing in here, because I believe that I should try to open my ideas and thoughts to the community ( you ) first, discuss the problems and possible solutions. This is why I use this forum.

i often say i want binaries because if you want to try out several different programs (say different...ummm... html editors or whatever) but dont know which one is good it would be nice to be able to try each one out and then just compile the one you like for your hardware. i guess that is the strength of kilk but kilk needs some work.


Yes that's right. Klik is great, although I don't use it. In my opinion its good for simple users who want to add some software which is not installed with the official package management. Klik can solve some problems, but my focus is on solving normal system upgrades, like apt does.

i dont think emerge necessarily uses all my cpu power but i will let that slide for now.


Code: Select all
 #> top


anyway anyone else think that portage can be more efficient. i can imagine that if the gentoo developers worked on making it faster they could make long installs take considerably less time without sacrificing the power it already has.


Sorry but this is logically impossible. You cannot optimize endlessly and "Premature optimazition is the root of all evil" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_(computer_science) ). The real bottle neck of emerge is the compilation and you cannot optimize that and especially not in portage but only in gcc and logically compilation will always take much more time than bin packages...

If you don't know if you want it or not than find the binary. I compile on a PII 400 for goodness sakes.

I would consider Debian in your case. Have you any advantage of compilation (not of the rest of Gentoo) ? Don't you think that binary packages for 586 Sabayon could spend you much more time?
By the way what do you mean with find the binary?

Gentoo = Compile <-- there is a reason for this, it's what make Gentoo


No! Gentoo is most about freedom. It is not a simple technical structure. Gentoo tried to give its users as much freedom as possible. Read more details on the Gentoo homepage.
Gentoo's portage is the idea of making software management as free as possible.

Technically(!) you could say that Gentoo is more or less Portage. But Portage has support for binary packages and therefore binary packages are part of the Gentoo concept. But you are not tied to them. You are free to do it yourself. This is what is great about Gentoo and where the Gentoo concept goes much beyond Debian's Apt.
Choosing between source and binary packages is much more freedom than being tied to compilation. Every user can build his own "distribution". But most users don't need their own distribution, they need a predefined setup like Sabayon.
I think it harms Gentoo a lot, if you try to force its users to compilation. Gentoo always has some image of pseudo-elite. You can read that in the Wiki and there is also an interesting link with quotations of Gentoo users there. I don't think that this is a real idea of freedom. I would like to make Gentoo available for less experienced users, too. I would like to give them the freedom of choice in Gentoo and the possibility to grow in Gentoo. Sabayon plays a very important role here. Don't you think that, too?

I have no problems compiling, don't want to compile than use a different linux distro - it's that easy. It's been stated that SL does not have the resources to do this. Your beating a dead horse, resources need to be on SL development. There is no funding for this binary project, Binaries are available if not, compile it. It doesn't take that long to compile a average program.


You don't even read my postings, do you? Once again, I'm on your side and I tried to make it clear very precisely why binary packages are really important. If you help the Sabayon project I want to thank you a lot for the best distro I've ever seen.
Binary packages can be a big advantage for many users. Gentoo will never be attractive to any average desktop user with compilation. It's too complicated and resource intensive, although it can be really interesting to experience it. And the average desktop user is the majority. Even I, having many more interests than computer science and GNU/Gentoo, am thinking about switiching because Gentoo takes much more time with compilation than Debian does. And I love Gentoo for the possibilities to dive in the system very deeply. Binary packages would be the perfect solution.
If I need less time for administrating my setup, I can put more time into working on Gentoo/Sabayon.

Cheers,
whilo
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Postby wolfden » Sat Nov 18, 2006 21:59

Like I said - don't like compiling, don't use Gentoo, it's that simple. It's a great feature of Gentoo.
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Postby cvill64 » Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:07

"No! Gentoo is most about freedom."

Whilo, yes, please don't think we think bad about you, I have absolutely no problem with this thread being discussed and see no harm or anything bad, so you're all clear :)

But, now getting back to discussion, that quote from you seems very hypocritical of wanting a binary repo, if gentoo, and sabayonlinux, are most about freedom, why should there be binaries? I will reiterate my point of view, for the normal user, if they want to use gentoo/sl, then they must compile to fit their own taste and style and functionality. However, for a business, in which all the computer are the same, and they want the same functionality accross the board, a binhost makes absolute perfect sense, and I would go so far as saying a necessity!

"I know C++"

We are looking for developers to help us out in some custom programs and fixing bugs we run accross (like right now I'm running across a --enable-final bug in soundkonverter) and would love some help. If you're interested, please send me an email or jabber (I actually think I've talked to you over jabber with the kde patches) but send the email if you're interested :D

Anyways, this discussion is good, and I hope all can voice their opinion. As such, to me imho, there does not seem to be a strong desire from the community for a binhost of SL, and we offer the binaries of sl already, all on the dvd. Hope to hear from you soon :)
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Postby whilo » Sun Nov 19, 2006 17:03

Like I said - don't like compiling, don't use Gentoo, it's that simple. It's a great feature of Gentoo.


Yes and I like compiling a lot. Compiling gives you a feeling about the code. You don't install a blackbox and don't know what's in it. That's why I am back from Debian. In my opinion it would be better if I could choose. Install the binary with standardized build settings or do it my self for my special needs.

I simply want to have the choice inside Gentoo and put the advantages of binary packages in it, too. I don't want to have to change the whole distribution for some simple standard setups. I would like to have Gentoo everywhere and customize it, when I need to/want to. But it's insane to have special setups for every computer. Normally I mirror my Gentoo system at some point (stage 4) and put it on other computers. This is only interesting for people with a lot of technical interest. Most people want a reasonable setup and then they can have the possibility to tweak it.

But, now getting back to discussion, that quote from you seems very hypocritical of wanting a binary repo, if gentoo, and sabayonlinux, are most about freedom, why should there be binaries?


Yuhu now I know what hypocritical means. In my opinion binaries are not contrary to freedom. Why should the most political distribution, Debian, use binary packages if they were non-free?

The GPL and its freedom is about the possibility to tweak everything, but not the necessity to build everything on your own. The GPL gives you the software for free. In fact you own it, but you may not own it alone.
Gentoo will always be based on sources. But why don't you ship Sabayon with a big portage distfiles directory and let the system compile all of itself when booting?

You want to give a very simple entrance to Gentoo Linux, don't you? Why not ship the whole DVD on sources, if you want it the Gentoo way?
Because almost nobody wants that. Besides all freedom the system has to be useful and then it can be free. A useless free system is still useless. For most users a predefined setup is more useful than to do it all on their own. The computer is only a small ascpect in their lifes and I understand them.
But still freedom is good for them, too. And I think technically it doesn't make sense to use a different distribution just to get simple binary packages. With Sabayon you get a very easy to use distribution and very good setup for (Gentoo) Linux, but compiling is not easy to use and source updates don't fit in most people's lifestyle ("Hey mom, I will print your bank documents tomorrow, because I have some cups-revdep-rebuild-problem and need to rebuild 20 packages." ).
This is why GPL software is really free. You can use it in any way you want to and therefore you can even tweak the code level, but you needn't to.
Even with binary packages in Gentoo, it's no big deal to compile from source and optimize to your needs.
You won't loose freedom, you will simply make it easier to achieve.

Cheers,
whilo
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