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[ReemZ]

You do have a point there John, but I do hope you see mine too

Helping people with linux is a lot like helping people with math. They'll come to you with a specific problem that they can't figure out and they want you to give them the answer. You can give them answer, but they won't learn how to do that type of problem. The other option, is you can attempt to point to them to information that will teach them how to solve this type of problem on their own, or at the very least understand the problem and learn how to gather information.

A good wiki entry is like a math text book. It's not as good as somebody experienced working with you, but at the same time the people who wrote it know what they are talking about and do a good job of explaining things as they go along.

QFT

btw John, I didn't realize it was actually you I'm helping in the 3.5 topic until now
Guess you must see the point I've been trying to make here

[johnlvs2run]

I have spent hours in the wiki before looking for answers to specific questions, and must say that the wiki might be excellent for someone who already knows all the answers, but not for someone who is starting from scratch, as it is not specific enough in the basics, step by step. In that sense, it is not at all like a math textbook, because a lot of things are left out. Some people are so advanced that they just don't see this, and give a brief answer with a lol like the person is supposed to figure out everything else, not ever having seen it before.

This is why people don't learn, because they are not given the entire step by step solution to the questions that are asked, and thus no connections can be put together for reference. People are quite a bit like computers in that sense, as the information that's put in, is the basis for the output later on.

I'm not saying that is always the case, as many people are very helpful on the forum, which is greatly appreciated.

[johnlvs2run]

You do have a point there John, but I do hope you see mine too

btw John, I didn't realize it was actually you I'm helping in the 3.5 topic until now
Guess you must see the point I've been trying to make here

Sure I do see your point, or at least hope that I do.

A couple of other forums that I like are at wordpress.com, where it is amazing they answer the same questions day after day, over and over, and are all volunteers. That is probably why they are the largest and fastest growing blogging site in the world. Another entirely different and very popular one is at letsrun.com, where people share information on just about anything related to running, and the range of quality responses (and lack thereof) is staggering.

[ReemZ]

I have spent hours in the wiki before looking for answers to specific questions, and must say that the wiki might be excellent for someone who already knows all the answers, but not for someone who is starting from scratch, as it is not specific enough in the basics, step by step. In that sense, it is not at all like a math textbook, because a lot of things are left out. Some people are so advanced that they just don't see this, and give a brief answer with a lol like the person is supposed to figure out everything else, not ever having seen it before.

Good point, but if this is the case one could say one of two things: 'wiki doesn't work for me, help!' or 'this particular advice in the wiki did not do it for me, error message is this, if you guys can help me with this I can add the proper procedure to the wiki'. Subtle difference

Point is more the difference between someone that just wants to be spoonfed and get on with his or her own life and someone that wants to learn a bit, in order to teach others and give back to the community.
We do see whether a post comes out of frustration, panic, or sheer laziness.
The former two are understandable, the latter will be responded to with a simple RTFM
An example: about a month ago I saw a post by someone asking how to 'login to' (meaning launch) Konqueror as root.
The thread went on for a few days, with a lot of shouting and crying and him practically blaming us for him not understanding a bloody thing we were saying, and ending in me posting a lmgtfy link.
The answer to his original question could easily be found by entering same question in a google query, the first hit leading directly to the (very simple) answer. And that is the sort of people I am talking about here.

This is why people don't learn, because they are not given the entire step by step solution to the questions that are asked, and thus no connections can be put together for reference. People are quite a bit like computers in that sense, as the information that's put in, is the basis for the output later on.

Hahahahahaha props for that comparison!
Actually, step-by-step may help sometimes, as long as every step is explained. Not just the how, but the why as well.

I'm not saying that is always the case, as many people are very helpful on the forum, which is greatly appreciated.

It's all about sparking [our] interest, which can only be achieved by showing interest

[ReemZ]

You do have a point there John, but I do hope you see mine too

btw John, I didn't realize it was actually you I'm helping in the 3.5 topic until now
Guess you must see the point I've been trying to make here

Sure I do see your point, or at least hope that I do.

A couple of other forums that I like are at wordpress.com, where it is amazing they answer the same questions day after day, over and over, and are all volunteers. That is probably why they are the largest and fastest growing blogging site in the world. Another entirely different and very popular one is at letsrun.com, where people share information on just about anything related to running, and the range of quality responses (and lack thereof) is staggering.

Hey! No spamming!

[johnlvs2run]

Everyone wants to get on with their lives, and most people want to learn.

him practically blaming us for him not understanding a bloody thing we were saying

I did not see that. Probably he did not understand.

Google has been very helpful to me. Google and helpful people on the forum. The wiki has not been very helpful, probably because it is not step by step, and it is way beyond the basic things that I do on computer. I think to help someone that questions need to be answered from the point of view of the person asking the question.

Actually, step-by-step may help sometimes, as long as every step is explained. Not just the how, but the why as well.

Yes, step by step is quite helpful. I think that the how is much more important than the why.

[ReemZ]

Everyone wants to get on with their lives, and most people want to learn.

I think I wasn't clear, I ment get on with their lives without giving a toss about anyone else, as in, the difference between 'Please help me' and 'Help !! ---> ME <--- !!

The wiki has not been very helpful, probably because it is not step by step, and it is way beyond the basic things that I do on computer. I think to help someone that questions need to be answered from the point of view of the person asking the question.

OK, granted, the wiki's not perfect, but it's steadily growing.
Again, Sabayon is heavily understaffed, but as goes for all Wiki: Feel Free

I think that the how is much more important than the why.

And with this I shall never agree.
The how is important at that very moment for that particular person, the why is of the utmost importance to developers, to testers, to bug hunters, to users.
The why can teach everyone the how
You may know how to solve this particular problem, but when a similar problem occurs, which could easily be solved in practically the same way, only with one or two commands different from the other day's How (or different parameters to the same command, even), how will you solve that problem if you don't know why it occurs?

[johnlvs2run]

I think I wasn't clear, I ment get on with their lives without giving a toss about anyone else, as in, the difference between 'Please help me' and 'Help !! ---> ME <--- !!

Isn't that why people ask questions?

OK, granted, the wiki's not perfect, but it's steadily growing.
Again, Sabayon is heavily understaffed, but as goes for all Wiki: Feel Free

I'm not complaining about the wiki, it is fine. I'm just saying it is beyond my basic use of computer. I like Sabayon and that's why I use it.

I think that the how is much more important than the why.

The how is important at that very moment for that particular person, the why is of the utmost importance to developers, to testers, to bug hunters, to users.

Perhaps it is important to developers, but not to the person who is asking the question. Let's say a beginner runner asks me what socks to wear with their shoes. Should I answer "wear these socks", or should I say, well the socks you wear depend on the type of shoes, the construction, and the type of rubber. Now rubber used to be made from rubber trees but now....... and therefore 90 percent of shoes are not as wide as the people's feet who are wearing them... also what type of surface are you running on... the streets?????? omg you're in the wrong forum. See, it's a matter of perspective. This person still has no clue about what type of socks to wear with their shoes, will probably get the wrong ones and does not have the benefit of my great store of knowledge. However if I had just said, "wear these socks", then they would have a great head start - with my nudge in the right direction of course.

[ReemZ]

Isn't that why people ask questions?

Now this is where the how is more important than the why
Seriously, it's more about attitude, why people ask questions is pretty obvious

I'm not complaining about the wiki, it is fine. I'm just saying it is beyond my basic use of computer. I like Sabayon and that's why I use it.

Oh but if a wiki is not clear enough for you, the user, then it is not fine, by definition.
Any user, reporting exactly what he or she, to no avail, tried from the wiki, is welcome.
If the information in that wiki is indeed faulty, insufficient or incomplete, there's work to be done!:D
And if that user would not know how to edit a wiki or would want confirmation first, that's no problem at all, but be it editing wikis or pointing out 'weaknesses', that is all just one and the same way of making a community grow: by actively taking part in it

On the other hand, a user who won't even read the wiki and try, yyyyyyyyyyeah.........

Perhaps it is important to developers, but not to the person who is asking the question. Let's say a beginner runner asks me what socks to wear with their shoes. Should I answer "wear these socks", or should I say, well the socks you wear depend on the type of shoes, the construction, and the type of rubber. Now rubber used to be made from rubber trees but now....... and therefore 90 percent of shoes are not as wide as the people's feet who are wearing them... also what type of surface are you running on... the streets?????? omg you're in the wrong forum. See, it's a matter of perspective. This person still has no clue about what type of socks to wear with their shoes, will probably get the wrong ones and does not have the benefit of my great store of knowledge. However if I had just said, "wear these socks", then they would have a great head start - with my nudge in the right direction of course.

Actually, the socks would depend (great choice of words btw!) on a few factors, and if you just point one pair out and they turn out to be less than perfect, who do you think that beginner runner is going to blame?
On the other hand, if you give him just a few pointers, wait till they sink in a bit and then give one or two examples of types of socks that might work for him, thén send him off to the shop, he'll have a better idea of what to look for and eventually, which pair to pick. Should they then still turn out to be less than perfect, he'll think to himself 'ok, maybe that other pair'd been better...let's go back and change'...

[johnlvs2run]

Should they then still turn out to be less than perfect, he'll think to himself 'ok, maybe that other pair'd been better...let's go back and change'...

Thus people learn to make their own choices. I agree with all that you said. I meant the wiki is fine where it can be used by others, not necessarily me. I was not aware (am in my own little world a lot) that just anyone was able to edit the wiki, and don't feel qualified to do that anyway.

One thing that I like to do is to list the steps in my posts after figuring them out, whether from the instructions of others, meaning posting the steps that have worked for me. This grew out of seeing similar posts where someone had written "got it! thanks!", and I sure wished they had said HOW they had gotten it. Personally I feel it would be a good practice for people on forums in general to post the steps when they have figured them out, wherever they came from. This would go a long ways to creating individual "stickies", as often people use a search engine like google to find answers to questions.

Thanks for your comments.